College Admissions Declassified

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Julie Shields-Rutyna: [00:00:00] Welcome, everyone. Thanks for joining us for our MIFA webinar this evening called the College Admissions Process Declassified. And my name is Julie Shields Rutina, and I am the Director of College Planning, Education, and Training at MIFA. And I'm so happy to have our guest presenter here with us this evening, Drew Carter from the College of the Holy Cross in Worcester.

And Drew, I like to call you a friend of MIFA because you are so helpful. To MIFA with admissions content and helping us answer questions. And tonight Drew's really going to give us an insider's view of a lot of the topics in college admissions, uh, that you ask questions about. So, um, we'll, we'll start there, Drew.

Andrew Carter: It sounds great, Julie. It's great to be here. And, um, I certainly, um, would like to be considered a friend of MIFA. And, um, it's always great collaborating, uh, with MIFA and with you. And, [00:01:00] um, you know, a big part of our job in the world of college admissions is answering questions from families and from school counselors.

And when we sort of maybe take a 30, 000 foot view and step back a little bit, we realize that these questions tend to organized in a couple different categories. And what we've done tonight is to, to identify those categories. And then what I'll do is I'll go through and I'll talk about, um, answer basically the questions that are on the top of people's minds when it comes to these categories.

And, uh, because I'm not working for Holy Cross tonight, I'll, I'll try to just give you my personal opinion as a higher ed admissions professional. Um, and, uh, to the best of our ability, uh, we'll, we'll try to put people's minds at ease. So the first topic is one that is on, is a hot topic, especially in the last five years, is, um, while it's an important conversation to have as a family about what schools to which, um, your children will apply, it is almost equally [00:02:00] as important to have an understanding over what the best round to apply to.

Now that could be the most common round is regular decision, but lots of schools offer a variety of different early rounds, whether it's early decision, um, and there's can be multiple rounds of early decision or very popular early action these days. Um, and the all things are not created. Um, there can be easier or harder for an individual student depending upon which round they've applied it.

And sort of the big question that we get a lot is should I apply early or is it going to help my chances of getting in? And to be frank, for the most part, early rounds are smaller. Um, the pool of applications is smaller and you can make a good argument. Uh, don't you want to swim with fewer fish, right?

Don't you want to compete in a smaller pool? And when you've applied early as well, you've, you know, you've in some way to that [00:03:00] college, you've demonstrated your clear interest that that that school is a priority for you, whether it's early action or especially early decision. That's the binding application.

It's also a little demonstration of maturity to have an understanding of when deadlines are and to meet the earliest deadline that you're, you're demonstrating something to colleges there. You could also make the case that, well, frankly, um, the application process creates a level of stress in our high school seniors.

Why wouldn't we just want to end that process sooner rather than later? So meeting an earlier deadline, whether it's early decision or early action, that is going to help allow the student to enjoy their senior year a little bit more. So there are some compelling arguments to be made for applying in an early round, whether it's early action or early decision.

Now,

Julie Shields-Rutyna: now you bring up stress and I think about sometimes some of these early deadlines though come very soon into, into the [00:04:00] fall of senior year. Couldn't that cause more stress? And aren't there situations where a student might want to not push themselves that way in the fall and just apply in a regular, regular pool?

Andrew Carter: Yeah, you're totally right. Um, yeah, getting the process over seems like a, like a, you know, an attractive idea. But we're just condensed. We're not eliminating stress. We're just condensing And we're also probably heightening the stress in the high school amongst teachers who have to write recommendations earlier on, among school counselors who have to compile supporting materials on an earlier deadline.

Especially some of these big southern schools have deadlines that are over and um, that's a pretty tight window here for high school students in the northeast. who may not start school until September. It's a tight window to complete and to compile all the information to submit to colleges. Um, and the truth is, like most [00:05:00] schools, read applications the same.

Uh, it's the same readers reading it early and in regular. It's the same reading process. It's the same committee process. So there are good reasons to avoid this, uh, rush and crush of applying in an early round. I think in the end, it's a great conversation to have specifically with your school counselor because it doesn't matter what people say online.

It doesn't even matter what you've heard about the policies at that school. What matters is which round will your application represent the best in and which, which of those rounds is going to suit your needs the best. And some of that might be putting you in a position to succeed and some of that might be just managing the stress of senior year.

So, Um, understand it's an important decision, but it's a decision to be made in conjunction with your counselor and, uh, probably more than just one decision.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: That's great advice. Can you touch upon [00:06:00] one, one other factor? Because we get this question a lot at MIFA. Can you just touch upon, people will ask, is there a chance I'll get more money if I apply early or is there a chance I'll get more money if I apply late?

I mean, I

Andrew Carter: think the answer is yes. I know this is this frustrates people as it depends, but I think that is a very good question to ask is a good question to ask of each school individually, and to ask about each of their rounds, and in the two ways you mentioned. First, I do dole out financially equally across all rounds.

And then second, what about merit scholarships? Um, is there a better round to be applying in, uh, to qualify for merit scholarships? Because some schools are going to say no, and some schools are going to say, well, if you want, if you're interested in a merit scholarship, you've got to be in our early. It's a great question to ask.

And don't assume that one school's policy is another school's policy because we all have different policies, but it [00:07:00] is a very savvy and sophisticated question that has sort of a very real world implications. So These questions, I think, are just as, if not more important than the question about where you're going to apply.

It's what round you're going to apply to which of those schools. Thank you. Um, okay, so the next one, uh, and this is a, you know, this has stood the test of time, this question. And it's really about, uh, course rigor and whether or not students should pursue the highest rigor possible, whether it's, you know, moving up into an honors level or moving up from an honors to an AP level or whatever it might be.

Should students do that, uh, even if their grade might suffer? How will that be looked upon by college? And I think it's important to understand that, uh, you know, students applying to college, particularly students thinking about applying to selective schools, that they want to show those colleges, A, that they have, uh, taken on some, some academic rigor, that they have [00:08:00] adopted a sense of challenge, particularly later in their high school career, um, that they're also going to show colleges that they can succeed academically.

at the level that might be the closest to what a college level course might be at once they're eventually enrolled. So, and the, you know, the truth is like, perhaps that student will rise to that level. You know, there's an argument also to be made that Your grade may not suffer at all. Um, that, uh, you know, the rising tide lifts all boats.

Right. Um, so there is, uh, there is a sense that I'm out, I'm asked this book professionally and also personally by lots of friends, should my kid take this class or that class? And, and I do want to say, um, rigor. in the curriculum is something to be taken very seriously when thinking about course selection, particularly in the second half of the high school.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: And does someone have to take the highest level in all of their classes or can they pick and choose that a little bit?

Andrew Carter: And you're right, there has to be a balance to this. Um, there has to be a balance [00:09:00] in a lot of ways. Number one, I think there has to be a performance balance. If you pursue all rigors in all areas, Um, that might cause all of the grades to suffer.

If you pursue rigor, um, outside of the student's comfort level, particularly in their, if they have an area of weakness, um, then, uh, gosh, that grade may suffer. But that also, you know, we see a trickle down effect where other grades may suffer as well. Uh, but most importantly, we want to be thoughtful and cognizant of our student's, uh, mental and physical health and wellbeing.

We, even if the grades do not suffer, we do not want to put students in a position, um, based on, uh, their course selection, where they are going to suffer from stress and anxiety and where their mental health may struggle. So, um, this is a conversation to be had with the student. With the school counselor, but also with the parents who know their student best.

Um, it is a triangle conversation and I think, um, there is no easy answer, but I think, uh, to your point, I [00:10:00] think balance is the right path forward and colleges understand all of the, um, That that balance is necessary, and they're not going to necessarily punish every student who doesn't pursue rigor across every single discipline at all moments when it's possible.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: And I have one final question, because we received this question today from a parent who was concerned that their high school didn't offer as many APs as some other high schools and their student maybe wasn't getting into one of the AP classes they wanted to. So how is that going to affect the application and all?

Andrew Carter: So context is the most important piece that we in the admissions world have to understand when we evaluate a high school student's transcript. And by context, I mean, what school do they attend? What courses have been made available to them? What levels of courses have been made available? And then how students qualify for certain levels.

And then what years those levels might be offered. [00:11:00] And it's impossible. It's students. Never believe, uh, I never believe me when I say, Oh yeah, I know exactly what courses are offered at your high school. I know exactly your GPA scale. I know all of that stuff and it blows their mind, but we have to have an understanding of that for every single application and every single high school from which we receive an application, not just in Massachusetts, not just in the Northeast, but around the world.

That's why this is a full time job. It's why it's a 12 month job. Um, and it's frankly, it's just not as hard as most students think it is. Yeah. Um, we have our own databases, we have incredible, um, resources on our own campus, and then each high school provides documentation that allows us to, to understand that context, particularly, um, to understand the courses available and the levels of courses so that we're never going to punish or reward a student.

based on the high school they're at and what, what options they've been given for courses. We'll just seek to understand it so that we can fairly evaluate.[00:12:00]

So speaking of courses, an important conversation that, that, uh, students are often having with their school counselor towards the end of their junior year instead of their senior year is in particular about recommendations. How many recommendations do I need for college? Who should I ask for recommendations?

But the question we get most specifically is, how important are recommendations in the college, in the college application? Um, you know, these can be recommendations from teachers, from school counselors, sometimes, you know, from an employer or somebody outside, but most specifically, uh, we get this question about the required, um, recommendations.

And the truth is, They are narrative form. There is more detail and color and vibrancy to recommendations than there is to a transcript. Um, the transcripts, the most important part in our review of an application, but the recommendations do bring that student to life. And they help, uh, gosh, bring that two dimensional student into [00:13:00] 3D.

Um, they are a lot more fun to read, I can admit, than, than transcripts are, even though they're not nearly as important. Um, and what they help us to do is to have an understanding of what that student has been like in the past. My teacher's describing what it was like to have that student in their classroom, which allows us then to the best of our ability to predict what that student might be like in the future in our classroom.

Certainly some of that comes from grades, but there is a piece of that that must come from these narrative teacher recommendations that really, uh, talk to us about lessons learned and strengths and weaknesses and attitude and perseverance and all these qualities that we know will contribute. To a student's success, particularly as they transition to a different learning environment.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: I always wonder about that, so I'm glad you're, you're addressing that because I always think that, oh, let's take a teacher who's very popular, has great [00:14:00] relationships with students, and gets requests from so many students to write a recommendation. You know, it must be hard to really pick out all of those details for all of those students and write creative, unique letters.

Uh, you must see a lot of. Similar, you know, similar type words and things in those letters.

Andrew Carter: Yeah, you're right. It's that, that junior year English teacher, that junior year AP US history teacher who just gets bombarded with requests for recommendations. And you're right. Um, most recommendations read the same.

Recommend is the root of recommendation. So most of them are filled with observations and anecdotes and adjectives, mostly taken from the tail half of the student's junior year. Most of them talk about perseverance. Most of them talk about strengths. Most of them will refer to a, a lesson learned, um, and, uh, work ethic and things like that.

So you are right. And you know, if we're going to list out all of the parts of the application [00:15:00] recommendations, as far as the weight that they carry, are likely to be closer to the bottom and to the top. But in the world of selective admissions, there are no unimportant parts of the application. Um, and the truth is we also have to be understanding of the volume of applications that exists at some of the big universities.

Um, there are plenty of colleges here in the Northeast that have applications north of 50, 000, uh, each year, just for undergraduate admission. And if we go out to the West coast, Um, gosh, we've got, we've got schools in triple digits over 100, 000 applications for undergraduate admission. It is fair to wonder about how much time is given to reading the recommendations when you've got five and six digit application tools for each year.

Um, so. I think they do help clarify the picture of the student in the [00:16:00] mind of the admission office, but I think we need to keep these in context. Um, they are likely closer to the bottom in level of in terms of importance, then closer to the top. And, um, I think it still is a, It's a great lesson to our high school students to, to encourage them to engage with their teachers that the truth is, um, the best recommendations that I read every year are not necessarily from the best students.

They are from the students who got to know their teachers and their school counselor the best that they've given content. To those teachers to the school counselors where they formed a relationship and and those sort of relationships can contribute to grades, but it's when the student has really engaged in the learning process that I think we see the best recommendations.

Now something totally separate from the learning process, but maybe over the long term, maybe the most controversial part of college admissions is standardized testing, it has. [00:17:00] Um, It is, uh, back now in the post pandemic world where students have returned to requiring testing, but it has never played a smaller role nationally, I think, than it does right now in college admissions because we have an all time high number of schools who have adopted a test optional policy, not just under a trial basis, but that's certainly true for us here at Holy Cross.

And, um, certainly the proudly test optional, but that has not really impacted the loves of stress and anxiety and students as they consider, uh, which tests to take and whether or not they should admit their, submit their scores to each of the schools to which they'll. And the reality is, is that we know that through, uh, through research, both at Holy Cross and, um, National and, and frankly now international research that the tests are inherently unfair.

It's not a level playing field and, um, you know, standardized testing has certainly lost some weight and credibility since the pandemic [00:18:00] when students couldn't take the test and admissions offices were forced to make decisions, uh, without testing and gosh, the world didn't end, the sky didn't fall. And, you know, gosh, it's just four hours on one day.

It's not four years. And it's, you know, it's hard to say like, gosh, this is how we should measure a student by what circles they colored in on a sheet on one day over the course of a series of hours. Um, so. It's hard for me to say that it should be an important part of the application based on, you know, my experience at Holy Cross, but also based on the stress that I see that standardized testing can create, uh, in our high school students.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Yeah. Sometimes I hear people talk about grade inflation, you know, from the college side, grade inflation. How do you really have a measure that's the same for everyone? Um, [00:19:00]

Andrew Carter: right. I mean, like it's, it's there in the, in the, in the name, right. It is standardized.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Yeah.

Andrew Carter: And the truth is, you know, like you make a good point at some of these big schools.

They need to with with enormous applicant, especially the ones that now have returned to standardized to requiring standardized testing. They do need to lean a little bit more. on a standardized measurement. Um, the good news is that the majority of schools is still test optional. And, um, and I think it's important for students to do their best in standardized testing, but to do so without pressure, knowing that they can have many, many options for higher education.

If standardized testing is not a strength in their application, and if it will be a strength. then there certainly are schools out there that prioritize it or even test optional schools that will consider it. So it's worthy of best effort and attention, but it is not worthy of stress and [00:20:00] anxiety. That's good.

Now, it's speaking of things that have been hot button topics since, um, the pandemic activities, really, um, you know, something we were always asked about before the pandemic, but then. During the pandemic when activities just stopped and then in the post pandemic world now, I think there's been a lot of questions about what weight do activities play.

Um, like I said, it was a question we were always asked, but I think people are really serious now because they've gone through the experience of like, well, there are kids applying to college without activities because 2021. So how important can it really be? The truth is, I think, um, it, activities play less of a role in the decision than most of the outside world thinks.

Colleges are interested in learning about what students do because it helps them imagine what that student might be like on their campus. But it's not [00:21:00] a major way in which they're looking to make decisions or separate applicants within their pool. Colleges care that high school students do, but what they do matters much less than people think.

Admissions offices, they don't really think that student government is better than a job at CVS. They don't think, um, being in the, the spring musical is better than going home and babysitting your younger siblings every day. They think something is better than nothing. But there's not this sort of point system or weight valued to certain activities over others.

So, um, I'm, I'm sort of adamant in encouraging students to, to do the things that you want to do, do the things that you love to do. But do, um, and don't make decisions in your free time based on what you think will impress colleges. And that goes to hobbies. You know, I think in the [00:22:00] pandemic, we learned about a lot of hobbies that students have because gosh, that was all they could report on the application.

And some of that is carried over and we still see students reporting hobbies on the application. And that can be really valuable, whether it's family responsibilities or whether it's reading where I've learned about how. High school kids decorate their clothes sometimes and sewing and letterboxing.

I've learned about so many cool little hobbies and activities, um, since the pandemic. And that's been a really refreshing start. So I'm, I'm, I'm going to encourage high school students to do the things that you're interested in, do the things that you love, but also find a way to talk about those things in the application because all the things that you do have value and they help us learn about who you have been, and then also who you might be in our community.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: So I love that you just shared all of that. I think that's so important. I'm going to just push you just to, just to do so. Cause I, cause we have you here. What about sports? You [00:23:00] know, I feel like, you know, when I talk to families, to parents, I think, I think parents think that's more important. Um, and so talk about that, the role of, of that as an activity.

Andrew Carter: I think that the outliers here are the students who are truly exceptional in a small number of things outside the classroom that might be an institutional priority in a particular college. Okay, so the classic example, right, is the violinist, um, is the, the, um, uh, to use my example, right, that lead performer, that actor, actress in the spring musical who's applying to performing arts schools, that seven foot one basketball player.

There's a few like real outliers. Those are where the activity will impact the college search and the college decision that is, [00:24:00] gosh, that is so much smaller than 1 percent of kids who are applying, it is a fraction of a percent. If that's not who you are, which. I just would say that's not who you are, then your accomplishments, the way that the college where it might impact your application is how you write about that thing in a supplemental essay, or how you write about that thing in an essay, or how you talk about it In an interview, um, there's ways where activities add value to your application, other than just on your resume.

It's in your writing, it's in the recommendations that your teachers are going to submit, uh, and counselor might submit. Um, it seeps into other parts of the application, not just in a list of achievements and activities.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Yep.

Andrew Carter: Um, so we're still only in June. , but it's not too far from when our rising high [00:25:00] school seniors will start really thinking seriously about their essay.

Um, and you know, so that really begs the question we get asked all the time, like, what makes a good essay? Right? Like, and, and how important is the essay? Now, the, my, the, the essay is my favorite part of the application. That doesn't mean it's the most important part, but it's certainly my favorite part.

And the reason why I like it so much is that. Um, gosh, it's, it, it adds color and dimension, right? You know, I think about the application as being two dimensions, and when we get that student's essay, it brings it into 3D, right? It bring, it gives, it takes it from black and white into color. It helps us learn like new things.

It's a demonstration of the student's ability to write. Um, and it, it brings sort of a, I don't know, like a still image. and it turns it into a video. It helps allows us to visualize the student. Now I'm getting excited, you can tell, and using my hands a [00:26:00] lot. I still want to temper this by saying it's not the most important part, but like, gosh, it is, it's certainly our favorite part.

And, um, and it is an opportunity for students to really find their voice in the application process. And there's not a, not a ton of those opportunities, but this is certainly the main opportunity for them to find and exercise their voice.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Now what about something we've all been talking about lately, AI, you know, can AI write write these college essays?

Or if it's not AI, can someone have a parent write their essay? How do you deal with that? And how does that work?

Andrew Carter: Yeah, it's funny that there's this new level of questions now, right? About artificial intelligence and like, gosh, isn't that devaluing the essay? Because, and I've been quick to say like, well, we've always been suspicious of outside influence on the essay.

It's not just now, you know, before it was, Google, can't you just search for a good essay on the internet? And before that it was older [00:27:00] siblings and older cousins and parents. And, you know, there were, there were ways long before the internet for, uh, college admissions offices to be suspicious. Um, so certainly there is a temptation there, but there's always been a temptation to get outside help on your essay.

Um, the reality is, is that it's actually not that hard for admissions offices to determine how authentic the voice is in the essay. And it's not just because we have this essay and we're good at it, it's because we also have The writing on the extracurricular page. We also have the grades in English. We also have the recommendations and the teachers comments and we have all these other corresponding pieces of information that allow us to picture what we think the students voice might be like and and how elevated it might be.

And, and, and also what a 17 year old writes like, and I got to be honest, I've played around with AI. It's fine, but I have not seen the level of writing there from artificial intelligence that would ever [00:28:00] impress an admissions office. Um, maybe in its, it's, um, sort of ability to recite facts, but that's, you know, the essay, the college essay is really about voice and, and, um, There, there's no depth to the voice of AI as I've seen yet.

And so, um, while it's another thing on the list for us to think about, uh, in the world of college admissions, I'm honestly, I'm just not that worried.

So that brings us to the sort of the last question then, is like, when you take a look at all these things, then who really gets in? Like, who really gets admitted? We've talked about a lot of topics, but let's be honest, the academic piece is the most important piece of a college application. By the academic piece, I really mean what school the student has attended, what courses they've signed up for, how they've performed in those courses, meaning the grades.[00:29:00]

And then depending on if it's submitted or not, standardized testing, that, that, those sort of four things, uh, that's the cake. Everything else on the list that we've talked about, everything else in the application, it's, it's just frosting. Um, so college admissions begins with academics, and that's the sort of the most important part.

It's that, the engine to college admissions, that transcript review. Um, and it's, what we're trying to do is, is, is evaluate past academic performance and predict future academic performance. And really like the way you start that is by looking at, at, um, at grades, some schools, it might be standardized testing, and we're really trying to just choose students and looking at the work that students have done braids.

And for some schools can write assessing, that's really the best way to do it. Certainly there's a holistic piece of it, but frankly, Um, the academics is the most important[00:30:00]

Julie Shields-Rutyna: That's good.

Andrew Carter: Um, now, yeah, anyone who's taken a college tour and gone to an information session understands that, um, every college information session begins with some sort of explanation that they practice holistic review. And that, I mean, that's often misinterpreted. Holistic review means everything in the application is under consideration.

And that's sort of an assurance to students and the families, everything will get that doesn't mean everything counts the same. That's how it's misunderstood. Oh, well. If everything matters, then don't look at my grades in English, math, or science, look at, uh, um, gosh, uh, gosh, that I'm, you know, treasurer of the French Club.

Um, everything matters is a little different than everything carrying the same weight. So, it is more sophisticated and more nuanced than I sort of made it out there to be about just about academics. There is frosting on that cake, right? And that's an important part. [00:31:00] And, you know, the more selective you get into the world of admissions, then the bigger the role of the frosting and all those other pieces and the, and the better the cake has to be.

I don't know if you guys are following the metaphor here. Um, you know, that in the end, I think, you know, Uh, what I am often, uh, apt to say to students is to focus on the pieces of your college application that you have absolute control, you know, you control the effort you put in the class, you control how you exercise your voice in essays and in interviews, um, and you control how you engage with the world of college admissions through visits and, you know, if you attend open houses or how you interact with admissions counselors and those things I just listed right there, right, your engagement, right.

You're writing and your effort in the classroom. Those three things, gosh, they create such incredible momentum to a student's application. As you know, Julie, momentum works both ways. It can be negative momentum, it can be [00:32:00] deceleration, or it could be acceleration, be positive momentum. And even for students who are rising seniors at this point, they still have an ability to create that positive momentum and work that they'll do in the classroom next fall and how they sort of find and exercise their voice.

And how they engage with colleges through this sort of, um, journey of a search and application process. doesn't, um, it does not, those three things do not erase the other parts of the application, but they do create a lean to the application that I think gives students an opportunity to put their best foot forward.

And I think that's what we want for our students. It's also a good lesson for adult life, as Julie and I can attest. focusing on the things you control and trying to let go of the other things. Um, some of us are still learning that lesson. Maybe not you, Julie, but I am.

But it is a great time to start to impart that lesson [00:33:00] to our, our teenagers, in particular, our students who are, you know,

Julie Shields-Rutyna: So it's just, it's so good to hear you talk about how, how this all works in, in reality and in practice. Um, since you're with us, would you be open to a couple of questions if we have a few minutes? So if, if you have any questions, um, or about anything that drew covered, let me just see. I see we have one.

Oh, there is a question.

Andrew Carter: Yeah, that's a great question. And I did, I talked about early action early decision. I talked about the early rounds. Um, and to clarify early decision is a binding application. And when you submit that application, um, there's an agreement form that the student signs, the parent signs and the school counselor signs.

And it basically just says that, that the student and family understand. what early decision means. And what that means is that if you've [00:34:00] submitted an early decision application to a college, you can only have one active at a time. And that's because If you are admitted, then you have promised to enroll at that college.

Um, you promised to withdraw all your other applications. Um, it's a, I mean, for lack of a better term, it's a, it's a proposal, right? You're down on a, on a knee with a ring saying to that college, um, will you have me? Um, now there's a stipulation there that, uh, you, you potentially could be released from that early decision agreement.

If the financial aid award makes it impossible for you to attend. Um, I would just. caution families to think very seriously about that, and understand that if cost is going to be a major deciding factor, and you're unsure about what your estimated family contribution might be at a particular college, then I would probably say early decision is probably not the best route, um, that you might be better off in a regular decision, in a, an application round that's not [00:35:00] binding, so that you can find out where your cost might be, and also compare that other costs.

and other potential acceptances that your child may receive from other schools.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: And I'll, I'll just ask an add on question to that because we receive this question often. If someone applies early decision or regular decision and applies for financial aid, are they going to get the same package a similar package?

Are they going to get more money one way or the other?

Andrew Carter: And it's good question. It's a good question to ask each school specifically. Okay. Um, and I would. I would say, um, you know, do you do a lot of financial aid the same way, no matter the round, but also merit scholarships. Some schools, you know, are only going to award merit scholarships in certain rounds.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: And

Andrew Carter: um, so that is a, gosh, you, you could ask 10 schools and get 10 different answers, or you could ask 10 schools and get the same answer, but it's a very important question to ask both about financial aid policies [00:36:00] and about merit scholarship policies and how they might change from around. Um, that's a good question.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: That's great. And there is a question about class rank. Someone's high school doesn't have class rank. How will that affect that student in the admissions process?

Andrew Carter: So every year, more and more schools are doing away with class rank. Nobody's actually bringing it back. Um, there's only schools getting rid of it.

So, um, again, colleges, um, the admissions world is not going to punish nor reward you for the school that you attend, but they will seek to understand the context. And that's, that's our job. And we do that in a lot of ways through our own internal data that we've collected over the years. We do that through, um, something, a document called the school profile, which your school will send in conjunction with your transcript.

So, um, whether you attend a school with a rank or without a rank, um, that's not going to benefit nor hurt you in any way. It's just a piece of information that a school might have or may not have. Um, and so [00:37:00] there's no real, and I don't think it's. better to attend a school with a rank or without a rank?

Um, and again, um, it's a really good question to ask, but, um, yeah, you know, I'll just will seek to understand your environment and make sure that they do

Julie Shields-Rutyna: right. And then it's in all of what you have shared with us you talked about, um, you know, different parts of the application that are more important and less important.

And of course, one thing that that families and students here is that colleges factor engagement into admissions, you know, visiting the school. connecting with the school, but how, how, how important is that really? And where does that fit?

Andrew Carter: I'm going to give a complicated answer here. I think it's always important for a student to have engaged in this college search process.

And by engaging, I mean, some of the things you're talking about, right? Whether it's reading emails, whether it's, um, uh, attending an event, whether it's in [00:38:00] person or virtually, you know, open house or tour or anything like that, I think those are always valued. It is not a point system. It's not as if every time you do one of those things, you get some points.

And if you get enough points, you get it. That's. It's literally not. Um, and what becomes tricky is that there are some schools out there. Holy Cross is one of them that will say, yeah, you know, we we do track a student's engagement. Um, and there are other schools out there. They're gonna say, no, we don't do it.

It's a fool's game. To try to figure out which schools do and which schools don't, and, and to engage the schools with. Do no. Just encourage your students to engage and authentically engage. They're gonna learn about colleges, they're gonna learn about themselves. They're gonna learn about options. They're gonna build a vocabulary, a college vocabulary of, um, you know, different curricula and of, um, common area [00:39:00] requirements, distribution requirements, all these things they're gonna learn through engagement.

And I think. remove from the fact that the school, you know, some schools might be, um, acquiring that information and others might. The truth is that the biggest way in which colleges are, are tracking students engagement is to learn about themselves, is to learn about what emails work on our end. Who's opening these emails?

Is that a good email or not a good email? And that, that open house event, was that a good event or not? So that's really the main reason there are other schools that, um, that might incorporate a little bit more in the application, but I think it's a fool's game. Students always win. When they authentically engage in the process.

Well, and one

Julie Shields-Rutyna: very specific question, does a failing grade in your junior year, that then, you know, a student has taken a credit recovery course, does that have an impact on the application?

Andrew Carter: I mean, everything in the transcript has an impact. I think, um, one thing I'll mention is that there [00:40:00] is a part on the common application in particular, and the coalition application does as well, and most school specific applications have this as well.

It's an opportunity for additional information. Um, on the common app, it's the very end, and it's kind of an open field. It just says if there's any additional information you'd like to share. That is a great moment to tell the story, why this one course in this one grade went so poorly, the, the small lesson learned, and then how, um, you're able to sort of capitalize on that lesson in the credit report.

Um, doesn't need to be a long explanation that should just be like five or six sentences. It's a good thing to, you know, to share with your school counselor as well so that they can have that in their mind when they're writing their recommendation but, um, everything on the transcript matters, but if there's something that bothers you, or worries you, or is an outlier, you can share that story briefly in the additional information section on the application.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: All right, I'll read. I think we [00:41:00] have one more. Beyond general academics, do some universities look at particular academic specialties or prospective majors in considering academics? So, for example, is it harder to get into a particular university if Your perspective student in a very popular major or say, engineering, biochemistry, business, something like that,

Andrew Carter: uh, the answer is absolutely.

Yes. Um, now there's a big difference out there. They're like larger universities where you're applying to specific undergraduate colleges or applying into specific majors. Those could have wildly different acceptance rates. It is a very good question to ask, um, whether or not when you apply, whether you're applying into a certain major.

Um, and that also is a great, um, example of how sort of bogus, um, acceptance rates are, um, you know, colleges, you know, if you Google blank university [00:42:00] acceptance rate, you're going to get a number, but that's just a combination of all their different application rounds and all their different application majors, because you know, you could see at a particular school where the acceptance rate to their nursing program is single digits, but to their college of general studies, their acceptance rate is over 50%.

So when you just Google that college or university acceptance rate, you're going to get a number, but it doesn't represent either of those programs. So that is a very good question to ask whether you have to declare a major in your application, or if you're applying into a specific program and to understand what your chances are in that program.

And then Historically, business, engineering, nursing, those programs have high demand with a small number of spaces, so they can be pretty selective, um, but not necessarily true at all schools, so it is a, but, so the answer is yes, it is a very good question.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Well, thank you. This has been terrific. Thank you for [00:43:00] giving us the insider scoop.

And thank you all for your great questions, and any closing thoughts?

Andrew Carter: Um subscribe to the mifa podcast that is a great resource not just because I Um, record, um, podcasts occasionally, but I also listen to them and I have lots of friends who listen to these podcasts and, uh, who find great value in that.

Actually, I just heard from a friend who said her daughter was, um, going to start at college in Ohio in the fall and they had been a four year listeners to the MIPA podcast, which I thought was very exciting. Um, And, and I think, um, you know, is, this is a great time to, uh, early summer is a great time to reach out to colleges with questions.

Um, it's kind of quiet in the world of college admissions offices right now. So questions that you have, um, about specific programs, specific schools, or just looking to learn. This is a great time to start to engage in that search process. And no question is a silly question. We're always happy to [00:44:00] answer both at Holy Cross, but certainly at other schools as well.

Julie Shields-Rutyna: Thank you. All right. Well, have a great evening, everyone. Thanks so much and good luck.